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Klika odpowiedzi na pytania ktore kazdy sobie zadaje - JP v
https://mmorpg.pl/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=7694
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Autor:  Scorpio [ 24 maja 2004, 11:23 ]
Tytuł: 

Bede wklejal odpowiedzi jednego z HIGH lv JP graczy :

Autor:  Scorpio [ 24 maja 2004, 11:23 ]
Tytuł: 

I PARTY :
There are several reasons behind this IMO.

1) The meaning of "J", "E", and "J/E" flag and the meaning of "Language Preferance":
In JP version client softare of FFXI, it is stated that the meaning of "Language Preference" means the languare you are willing to utilize and is able to. So, when a JP player sees a "J" flag, they will take it for granted that, that player can speek Japanese. In case of a "J/E" flag, it will mean to us that, that person is bi-lingual, meaning that person can communicate in both languages without an extensive use of the translator to a certain extent. It is also stated in our Player Manual that you set this flag in accordance to your language speaking/communicating capabilities.
I know that this is not the case in NA version playing community, that you the "J/E" flag as "willing to group with both Japanese or English speaking players" = "willing to group with any player, regardless of the language".
The difference in definition of the "J/E" flag is not the fault of either NA or JP playing community, but the fault of SE in not expressing officially, which meaning is correct by SE's standards.
So, this problems occurs that when a NA player who doesn't speak Japanese put up a "J/E" flag, the JP player sees that action as "Decieving", since the majority of the JP player community doesn't know what the "J/E" flag means to the NA players. Discommunication occurs as result, and that leads to bad reputation that a NA player who has "J/E" flag is not "truthful".
The only temporary solution I can think of to soothe out this somewhat is to put in your search comments that you can NOT speak Japanese, but is willing to group with JP players, so that JP players can atleast know beforehand your true intention of "J/E" flag means. It's really up to SE to remedy this situtation as a whole, though.

2) The grouping habits of JP players:
First of all, please note that majority of JP parties are formed and disbanded in Jeuno. Our usual method after Lv20 or so is to form a 6 people group in Jeuno, and according to the configuration of the members, we choose where to go XPing, and head to the hunting grounds together. It is very rare that we pickup someone at the hunting grounds, so if you are going LFG in hunting areas, it will be very rare that you will get into a JP group.
Also, another habit is that we usually don't add members. When a member or some members need to leave the party, we usually don't look for replacements, but just go back to Jeuno, or any of the nearby cities and disband the whole group. And usually, an average JP XPing group will hunt around 2-3hrs with the same group. It is very seldom that we keep at it at the hunting grounds for hours, adding replacements. This is the main reason behind any players not being able to join JP groups AT the hunting grounds, or in Kazahm, etc.

3) The English speaking capability of an average Japanese person:
In Japan, we are required to take atleast 6years (in Jr. high and highschool) of English courses. The problem is, the Eng. education done in majority of Japanese schools are done in order to clear the college entrance exams. So, what is taught in these schools are more based on grammer and memorizing words, rather than actually trying to make the person capable of communicating in English. So, even though an average Japanese may be able to recognize simple words or phrases, most of them are not up to the standard of actually being able to make any form of communication out of them. In Japan, people who really want to learn how to communicate in Eng. goes to English conversation schools, paying something like 500-1000bucks per month. Since the majority of Japanese' Eng. capablility is very limited, most of us are very reluctant to put them selves in Eng. speaking environment of any form.

4)Japanese preference of XPing atmosphere:
Usually, most of average JP players perfer to chat around jokes and such during XPing, even in pick up groups. Yes there are some hard-core gamers, who prefers non-speaking, looking for uber-XP chain groups, but majority of JP players will place "enjoyable and friendly" atmosphere over these uber-XP groups, where the atmosphere is more uptight. So, the JP players would rather group with Japanese speaking players only, so they don't have to worry about not having have to utilize Eng. They feel more at ease that way. I'm sure that many NA players would choose Eng. speaking players over JP speaking only players, if they were able to choose between the two. We can utilize the translator function to a certain extent, but many of the words and phrases in this function is very limited to just basic gameplay. SE should really add more words and phrases that makes us communicate our emotions a little bit more easier.

5)Difference in tactics and strategies:
In JP groups, we perfer to think what is best for the group, and what we can give to the group. This means that we limit our playstyles and choice of our sub-jobs, especially in pick-up groups, so that all of us shares the same base knowledge behind the tactics and strategies. In other words, we usually have templates of actions preset for most XPing situations, and abide by them, and not improvise much from them, unless there is an update or a patch that requires to change our methods and/or formulae. For JP players, keeping your sub-jobs up-to-date at all times, save may be when you leveled in that group where you went over the prepared sub-job level. We usually utilize food at all times in XPing groups post 20, almost 100% post 30s. IMO, NA players are more varied in their playstyles, and individualized, when compared to JP players. Many (I'm not saying all, or even majority of) NA players will sub accoding to their likings, and some will go far as to say "this is my game, and I play for enjoyment, so I'll sub a SAM to my RDM and melee upfront all I want, because that is MY playstyle.". Now I know, that these people are by no way a majority. But, I regret to say, people with this kind of "individualistic" notion is percentaged higher in NA community than in JP community. I am not saying this is bad, nor the JP way is good. It is just difference in playstyles, and some tactics and strategies that is felt comfortable in NA groups, are sometimes not in JP groups. So, rather than make a big issue out of it, many JP players will just wait for another JP or JP speaking player, so they will know that all players will share the same values and notions in XPing, and will be able to adjust easily because all speaks the same language, if there is a difference that needs to be settled.

6) Steps involved in utilizing the Translator funcion:
In NA clients, in order to utilize the translator, all you have to do is to type a few letters of the word you want to translate, and hit tab, and then hit enter once you find the word you want to translate and finalize it.
In case of JP clients, the basic steps are the same, only that we have to use the IME (Japanese input method) before we hit tab to select the word/phrases. Usually, utilizing the IME to input Japanese takes another 2, 3 steps, so in total, we need to take 5,6 steps to input Japanese (and hit spacebar to choose the right Japanese word in IME), hit tab, choose word/phrases in translator, hit enter to finalize.
So, in this way, many JPs are reluctant in utilizing the translator in real-time conversations, since most of JP players are not fast typist to start with (we are not required to take any typing/word-processing courses in schools). So, our use of the translators are usually limited to our macro-comments, search comments etc. It may sound lazy from a NA player's point of view, but since many JP players are not too enthusiastic in placing themselves in Eng. speaking atomosphere, and also very reluctant in putting a single Eng. only speaking player in a group consisted of 5 JP members (because they themselves doesn't want to place themselves in a situation being an only JP member in 5 Eng. speaking member groups), many JP groups will look for another JP player to pop, instead of inviting an Eng. speaking player.

Please note that the majority of JP players not inviting NA players are due to the language and communications issues, and also in difference of playstyles. So, to most of us, this is not in any way, cultural or a racial issue, but just a practical issue. Yes, we have our share of bad apples, and I admit, we do have quite a few of them, probably as much as the same percentage as you have bad apples in NA playing community. We most definately has some JP players who will discriminate against NA players for being an American, Brithish, Canadian, or what ever nationality/race you are. But they are not the majority, although they sometimes stick out like a sore thumb, but for most JP players' reasons behind being reluctant in grouping with English speaking (not because they are NA, but because they don't speak Japanese), is usually the combination of above 6 reasons.

I know tht the present situation is not 100% preferable situation for both sides, but this situation of mixed culture has only been out for 6 months or so, so let us give both sides a little bit more time, and also hope that SE can give us both some more solution to make it easier for both of us player bases. :smile:

Sorry for the long post.

Aenos

Autor:  Scorpio [ 24 maja 2004, 11:24 ]
Tytuł: 

DYNAMIS

When you (or any other non-Japanese-speaking) person is not admitted in one of these raids, I can think of several reasons.

1)Explanation of Tactics and Strategies:
The Dynamis Raid, as you may already know, usually consisted by maximum number of 64 members. That is 3 full-alliance of 18 + 10 people. In my Dynamis Raid group, we separate the Raid team into 4 alliances:

a)Front-Runner/attacker Alliance: Consists of the leader/puller parties, and a special attacker party (BLM + BRD or RDM). The leader/puller party takes care of the initial targeting, the pulls. The attackers takes care of the Statues with fast nuking.

b)Mid-runner/multi-purpose A: An alliance consisted of fairly balanced party of 3, as you would expect in a Xping situations. You have a main-tank (the targeter) and a sub-tank for this alliance, and the purpose is to pull and disperse mobs from the bunch of mobs that puller in Alliance-a pulled.

c)Mid-runner/multi-puropose B: Same as A.

d)Rear-guard: Configuration is same as mid-A or mid-B. The objective of this alliance is to take care of any loose mobs that is not taken care of by alliance-a, b, or c. This is sort of a backup alliance to act flexiably accoding to situations at hand.

Now, with that said, co-ordinating 64 people in Dynamis is very hard even in a JP only situations. It usually takes about an hour to configure the members into above 4 alliances, since we have half-static, half-new members everytime we enter. We usually take about 30-60 minuets to go over the tactics, starategies, basic call-signs, lotting rules, etc. before entering Dynamis.

With that said, making a multi-language raid LS means all of the explanations have to be done twice, which means it takes double the time to do. It's taking us about 2hrs after the inital gathering to do all of the configuring and explaining, so that means it will take around 3hrs before entering,if this was done in both languages. So, I guess most Dynamis-raids would rather not go through the hassle, since doing in JP only situation is complicated enough.

2)During Raid:
You stated that you can use the translator to do the explaing, but in there, it will be impossible to have the time to utilize the translator. And, the <pos> command doesn't work in Dynamis, so all of the position explanations are done with landmarks (ie: Dukes's palace, in Jeuno for example). So, no one will want to go through the trouble of having have to utilize the translator and/or looking up words in Eng. in order to explain it to someone in Eng.

Now, most Proficient Dynamis-Raids are usually consisted of static members, since co-ordination is the utmost key in clearing these places. These raid-LSs are usually configured with several existing LSs + friends of the members, so the only way to get into one of these is to know someone who pariticipates in them regularly. Then there are the ones doing the /shouts for Dynamis. I don't know how proficient they are, but I've heard that most one-time only Dynamis pick-up raids are not successfull, because of lack of co-ordination. I think when you say you can't get in, you probably mean these pick-up groups.

The only advice I can give you is to make friends with a high-level JP player, who also speaks fluent enough Eng. to explain things to you, and also participates in one of these raids.

Right now, there are even many high-level JP players that can't participate into one of these raids, since most of them a full. The one I'm in has a waiting list of 30, who would like to participate, in case there is an absence of a static member. So, don't feel too discouraged, for it is not only you, but many JP players as well still can't participate into them.

I'm sorry I couldn't be of much help, but I wish you luck in your pursuits. Keep your head high. :smile:

Sorry for the long post.

Aenos




_________________
FFXI : Stokrotka Mithra RDM 55/BLM 29/WHM 20/THF 20/NIN 10/WAR 11/SUM 5/MNK 6 ....
Cooking 49*Fishing 25*alchemy 8*goldsmith 6* blacksmith 4 ...
My gear : http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?11515

<font size=-1>[ Ta wiadomość została zmieniona przez: dnia 2004-05-24 12:25 ]</font>

Autor:  Bodziu [ 24 maja 2004, 12:46 ]
Tytuł: 

He he !!!
Fajnie ze ktos od nich pokusil sie o wyjasnienie, byc moze teraz nabiore troche wiekszego respektu do nich anizeli tylko jak do wyizolowanego narodu :wink:

BTW. Dynamis, po takiej lekturze to nawet nie wiem czy jest szansa zorganizowania czegos takiego, jak i sama organizacja gry w ekipie 64ludzi nawet jesli kazdy alliance ma jakies zadanie to musi to byc niesamowicie trudne, nawet nie jestem w stanie wyobrazic co tam sie dzieje skoro takie ekipy maja problemy :smile:

Autor:  Targaryen [ 24 maja 2004, 13:48 ]
Tytuł: 

Swietne wklejki, dzięki bardzo. To rzuca swiatło na zachowanie niektórych Japsów plus może faktycznie częśc z nas zmieni do nich swoje podejście. Dynamis... nie zmieniam zdania, będe chciał sie tam wybrać jak poczuję się odpowiednio silny :smile:

Autor:  swordsman [ 24 maja 2004, 20:22 ]
Tytuł: 

no fajna sprawa.... tyle ze nikogo to nie pocieszylo chyba...

goscie maja STATICI 64 OSOB !!!!! SZESCDZIESIECIU CZTERECH OSOB !!!! a my do kupy raz w tygodniu w 6 ciezko nam sie zebrac....

dynamis jest napenwo extremalnie ciezki w por do takeigo garrisonu czy BCNMow... a nam na to ciezko sie zebrac a jak juz to zawsze w dupe dostajemy....

....

...

:sad:

Autor:  Targaryen [ 24 maja 2004, 21:26 ]
Tytuł: 

Niektórzy z nas w porywach mogą grac do pół roku, reszta duzo krócej. Oni mieli półtorej roku na zgranie zanim pojawiło się Dynamis. Nie ma się czym przejmować tylko należy się cały czas przygotowywać. Weźmy pod uwagę, że CAP 40 czy CAP 30 nie jest aż tak ważny jeśli sie ma uber itemy. Zupełnie inaczej się podchodzi do walki mając lizzy+emperor niż będac posiadaszem nikczemnych dodge headband i soil sitabaki :smile:

Pozostaje zdobyć powazny sprzęt, dograć się i jechac koksem.

Autor:  Mark24 [ 25 maja 2004, 07:26 ]
Tytuł: 

Do tego to nie są żadne staticy. Jak gra istnieje na rynku pewien okres czasu to tworzą się różne "społeczności" i razem organizują różne "imprezy".
Z japanami się nie dogadasz, trzeba czekać az ktoś z NA gildię raidową (w sumie to już coś takiego jest) i będą eventy i raidy.

Autor:  mrynar [ 25 maja 2004, 08:09 ]
Tytuł: 

To prawda wszystko się rozbija o brak łatwej komunikacji z Japończykami. Przy pomocy słownika można grać w exp party, ale jakiejś szczgółowej taktyki nie da się ustalić. Można korzystać wprawdzie z jakiegoś japońskiego poligloty, ale to już nie to samo.

Mam wrażenia, że na wyższych lvl spotykam wciąż tych samych ludzi, nasz LS jest znany więc naprawdę jest szansa stworzyć anglojęzyczną społeczność zaufanych ludzi :smile:. Jeszcze może być fajnie! :smile:

Autor:  Scorpio [ 25 maja 2004, 08:45 ]
Tytuł: 

Ja sie czuje w tym ukladzie jak odludek :sad:
bo poza LS-em w zasadzie nie znam ludzi na ktorych moge liczyc :/ Fakt spotykam te same osoby w kolko ale nie nawiazuje hmmm blizszych znajomosci z ludzmi w party w ktorym akurat expuje :grin:

Autor:  Kang [ 25 maja 2004, 09:12 ]
Tytuł: 

Nie no co do znajomości podczas exp party to poznałem trochę fajnych ludzi - którzy mi pomagają jeżeli to tylko możliwe :smile:
Dostałem ponadto ze dwie perełki do różnych LS'ów i tam siedzi sporo osób ale nie ma zbyt wielu uberów.
Mimo to ja mam olbrzymie problemy ze znalezieniem exp grupy gdyż nie ma z kogo jej złożyć. Statica w naszym LS nie złożymy bo Drac wyjechał do przodu a ja z Maldim to za mało na party...
Party próbowałem składać wielokrotnie i niestety bez większych rezultatów gdyż z reguł brakowało nam jakiegoś maga. Bardzo często zdarzyło mi się czekać na 6 membersa po 2-3h i nikt się nie pojawiał. Do tego dochodzi fakt że w wielu E grupach spotkałem się z taką sytuacją iż J playerzy nie byli zapraszani a także vice versa gdzie E nie byli zapraszani do J party.

Autor:  Mark24 [ 25 maja 2004, 09:40 ]
Tytuł: 

Dogoń nas, my teraz mamy problemy z zebraniem się do kupy, najczęściej kogoś brakuje, jak już przyjdzie to ktoś inny musi się wylogować na godzinę, potem przychodzi, kogoś innego akurat nie ma... i zaraz trzeba iść spać bo rano do pracy...

Autor:  Kang [ 25 maja 2004, 09:59 ]
Tytuł: 

W takim tempie to ja was dogonie za 2 miechy :grin:
Ale spróbuję :wink:

Autor:  swordsman [ 25 maja 2004, 11:01 ]
Tytuł: 

proponuje sie rozproszyc i natrzaskach znajomych po katach bo kiszac sie we wlasnym sosie zostaniemy w koncu z reka w nocniku... nasz static sie okaze jeszcze naszym przeklenstwem...

Autor:  mrynar [ 25 maja 2004, 12:40 ]
Tytuł: 

już się okazał naszym przekleństwem :smile:

Autor:  Gokulo [ 25 maja 2004, 14:35 ]
Tytuł: 

Heh lol :wink:

Autor:  Huckster [ 25 maja 2004, 15:46 ]
Tytuł: 

Stokrotka - troche sam jestes sobie winien. Xavery np ma dłuuugą listę friendów spoza linkshella i zawsze może liczyć na złożenie party. Ja bym się nie kisił w sosie polaczkowym :wink:

Autor:  ksawery [ 26 maja 2004, 15:56 ]
Tytuł: 

lol, sos polaczkowy :smile: Tak... dla mnie cala ta gra opiera sie na lisice "Friends". Bez odpowiednio dlugej listy dupa blada :/. Inna sprawa ze BARDZO duzo pomocy uzyskalem od naszego LSu rownez i nawet nie chce mi sie wyliczac nickow bo to nie laurka.
Ale polecam rozproszenie i poznawanie ludzi - dla mnie to jest fun tej gry.

Autor:  Mark24 [ 26 maja 2004, 16:28 ]
Tytuł: 

Po prostu błędnie założyliśmy, że pomoc LS-a w krytycznych sytuacjach wystarczy :/

Lol? Naprawdę nie ma się z czego cieszyć.... W całej reszcie mmorpgów wzajemna pomoc opiera się w 99.9% na gildii (ls).

Autor:  Mazee [ 27 maja 2004, 03:24 ]
Tytuł: 

Mark24 - pomoc LSa tak oczywiscie ... ale poza LSem jak najwiecej znajomych.
Ja osobiscie gralem stosunkowo, krotko i juz prawie wogole z Wami (ze wzgledu na roznice czasu).

Ale do momentu zakonczenia mojej przygody mialem juz kilkanascie(-dziesiat nawet) osob we friendlist.

Z niektorymi utrzymywalem kontaktakt via mail nawet jak juz nie gralem.

Dla mnie w mmorpgach strona social jest jedna z wazniejszych, a patrzac na FFXI mozna powiedziec najwazniejsza. Bowiem bez duzej grupy znajomych (nie tylko Polacy czy Europejczycy), jak juz wyzej napisano, ciezko jest niektore rzeczy zrobic.

Dodatkowo jesli chodzi o Japonczykow ... ze wzgledu na roznice kulturowe ludzie czesto bardzo blednie ich oceniaja. A juz europejczycy szczegolnie.

IMO FFXI jest ciekawym tytulem, wartym wyprobowania i zagrania, jednak jak i kazdy inny mmorpg posiada wady. Wszystko zalezy jednak jaki styl rozgrywki obieramy - znudzenie dopadnie nas wczesniej/pozniej/wcale.

Tak na margienesie - zupelnie inaczej ocenialibyscie Japonczykow jesli 1.byscie mowili po japonsku 2.oni wszyscy mowili po angielsku.

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